String issue or action?

[Sophie C]

Hi, I am hoping someone can give me their best guess here. I’ve just bought a new-to-me pono mahogony baritone, which is a lovely thing. However there’s an issue that’s puzzling me as I’m not sure if it’s strings/truss rod/saddle (or, please no, all three) that’s the cause. It’s come with worth brown strings on it which I haven’t used before, I have d’addario titanium on my other baritone and it also has slightly lower action than I’m used to. The D feels floppy, for want of a better word, it’s weirdly easy to slide right off the the neck when pushing it down and you can pretty much hear it slapping with anything played any distance from the nut (I have no appropriate vocab, I’m sorry; I mean when pressing down on the string). Will this be solved with wound strings, which feel an awful lot tighter on my other uke than these do, or would the fact that they’re thicker make it worse; would raising the saddle slightly be more useful or do I need to adjust the truss rod? (The neck to my astigmatic eyes looks straight, no bow.)
Sorry if this is incoherent! Any help (including “just try new strings/adjusting the truss rod/raising the saddle (that last would be my last option) and see if it helps” would be very gratefully received. I’m going to get new strings asap as I’m not super keen on these.
Thank you so much.

 

[merlin666]

Is that D string thicker or thinner than the g string? If it is thinner then it is supposed to be re-entrant and one octave higher than regular baritone D.

 

[Sophie C]

Is that D string thicker or thinner than the g string? If it is thinner then it is supposed to be re-entrant and one octave higher than regular baritone D.

Good call, but I’m sure it’s a low d string, it’s fractionally thicker than the G and miles thicker than the E. not sure it would be in any way playable if I tried to tune a high D an octave down!

 

[about2]

I'd start with a different set of strings. Worth Browns on a bari can be a little floppy, especially the D string. That's also what makes them so comfortable. They seem to have less tension than many. I wouldn't mess with the saddle or the truss rod - at least to start with. If possible, you could ask the previous owner how long the Browns have been on the uke and if he/she noticed any issues.

My guess is strings will solve the problem and I like your idea of a wound D string. Suggesting strings can be dangerous because individual tastes vary and because each instrument has its own voice, but that said, I suggest the Galli fluorocarbons. They are smaller in diameter than many, take a couple days (3-4 days for the D string) to settle in, but can produce a nice clear tone - which mahogany bari's can often benefit from.

Congratulations on your new bari! Hope it serves you for many years. The Pono MG can sing nicely - don't give up on it!

 

[Sophie C]

I'd start with a different set of strings. Worth Browns on a bari can be a little floppy, especially the D string. That's also what makes them so comfortable. They seem to have less tension than many. I wouldn't mess with the saddle or the truss rod - at least to start with. If possible, you could ask the previous owner how long the Browns have been on the uke and if he/she noticed any issues.

My guess is strings will solve the problem and I like your idea of a wound D string. Suggesting strings can be dangerous because individual tastes vary and because each instrument has its own voice, but that said, I suggest the Galli fluorocarbons. They are smaller in diameter than many, take a couple days (3-4 days for the D string) to settle in, but can produce a nice clear tone - which mahogany bari's can often benefit from.

Congratulations on your new bari! Hope it serves you for many years. The Pono MG can sing nicely - don't give up on it!

It’s a lovely thing! Previous owner never really played it and it arrived with all strings very loose; I think they’d been on there for a while but just not used. Thanks for the strings vote! I haven’t tried Gallis before but I like the look of them, thank you.

 

[merlin666]

Yes squishy strings are uncomfortable and can cause cramps in the hands as well as intonation issues. D'addario has baritone strings available in fourm materials, usually with two wound strings but their carbons have only one wound string.

 

[Charles Guy]

Evening Sophie,

I have an MB as well and have had same floppy D on various sets. The Aho set with gold D seemed the firmest tension wound. I currently have Uke Logic soft tension (no wounds) on and am enjoying them as they seem a bit quieter yet clearer sounding although D is a bit soft. I might try the hard tension down the road and see the difference.

Put Worth browns on my Kala ka-b and they sound really nice but oh yes is the D floppy feeling.

Strings will no doubt solve your issue and hopefully you won't need to try 8-12 sets like I have to get that just right feel. If there is such a thing as that just right never going to change set.

 

[Sophie C]

Evening Sophie,

I have an MB as well and have had same floppy D on various sets. The Aho set with gold D seemed the firmest tension wound. I currently have Uke Logic soft tension (no wounds) on and am enjoying them as they seem a bit quieter yet clearer sounding although D is a bit soft. I might try the hard tension down the road and see the difference.

Put Worth browns on my Kala ka-b and they sound really nice but oh yes is the D floppy feeling.

Strings will no doubt solve your issue and hopefully you won't need to try 8-12 sets like I have to get that just right feel. If there is such a thing as that just right never going to change set.

That’s really comforting, thank you! Currently on the bus on my way to buy strings, so we’ll see how that goes!

 

[Sophie C]

I'd start with a different set of strings. Worth Browns on a bari can be a little floppy, especially the D string. That's also what makes them so comfortable. They seem to have less tension than many. I wouldn't mess with the saddle or the truss rod - at least to start with. If possible, you could ask the previous owner how long the Browns have been on the uke and if he/she noticed any issues.

My guess is strings will solve the problem and I like your idea of a wound D string. Suggesting strings can be dangerous because individual tastes vary and because each instrument has its own voice, but that said, I suggest the Galli fluorocarbons. They are smaller in diameter than many, take a couple days (3-4 days for the D string) to settle in, but can produce a nice clear tone - which mahogany bari's can often benefit from.

Congratulations on your new bari! Hope it serves you for many years. The Pono MG can sing nicely - don't give up on it!

The gallis are very nice, thank you for the recommendation! Solved the D problem nicely; still need to see how I get in with the action but I’m really happy to have had these suggested; local shop didn’t have the d’addarios I’m used to so thank you again.

 

[kissing]

Aside from how an instrument subjectively feels, it helps to do some measurements.

Two I would recommend are:

1. What is the action at the 12th fret? Use a string action ruler to measure the millimeters between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the 1st string like below.

If it's about 2.0mm that's about the sweet spot many people prefer.
Some prefer higher (2.5 - 3mm) and some prefer lower (1.5 - 2mm).
It also depends on the instrument's structure and tolerance (i.e. some instruments buzz out at higher actions than others).
That'll at least give us a starting point on where the issue may lie, especially if you're way out of those tolerance ranges.


(This example shows an "action" of 1.5mm at the 12th fret, which is on the low side. However this instrument is an electric ukulele and is fine).

2. Gauge how much relief/bow there is on the neck.
You can do that by pressing down on the first fret and the last fret of one of the strings (usually the 1st string) and see if there is a gap between the top of the 12th fret and the string. Ideally there should be a tiny bit (enough to slide a Christmas card under).

If there is too small a gap or the string is actually touching the 12th fret, then your neck is either too straight or you have backbow - which will cause buzzing and playability issues. Adjust by 'loosening' the truss rod a bit counter-clockwise (move it a tiny bit at a time, like quarter turns)

If the gap is huge, then your neck might have too much relief and you need to adjust by "tightening" the truss rod clockwise a bit.

Plenty of guides out there - you can follow the instructions as they apply to guitars. The concept and tolerances are nearly identical between guitars and ukes.

 

[Sophie C]

Aside from how an instrument subjectively feels, it helps to do some measurements.

Two I would recommend are:

1. What is the action at the 12th fret? Use a string action ruler to measure the millimeters between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the 1st string like below.

If it's about 2.0mm that's about the sweet spot many people prefer.
Some prefer higher (2.5 - 3mm) and some prefer lower (1.5 - 2mm).
It also depends on the instrument's structure and tolerance (i.e. some instruments buzz out at higher actions than others).
That'll at least give us a starting point on where the issue may lie, especially if you're way out of those tolerance ranges.

View attachment 163973
(This example shows an "action" of 1.5mm at the 12th fret, which is on the low side. However this instrument is an electric ukulele and is fine).

2. Gauge how much relief/bow there is on the neck.
You can do that by pressing down on the first fret and the last fret of one of the strings (usually the 1st string) and see if there is a gap between the top of the 12th fret and the string. Ideally there should be a tiny bit (enough to slide a Christmas card under).

If there is too small a gap or the string is actually touching the 12th fret, then your neck is either too straight or you have backbow - which will cause buzzing and playability issues. Adjust by 'loosening' the truss rod a bit counter-clockwise (move it a tiny bit at a time, like quarter turns)

If the gap is huge, then your neck might have too much relief and you need to adjust by "tightening" the truss rod clockwise a bit.

Plenty of guides out there - you can follow the instructions as they apply to guitars. The concept and tolerances are nearly identical between guitars and ukes.

This is brilliant, thank you.
I don’t have a string action ruler but I do have a selection of gauged wire and sheet (jeweller), and while the gap is pretty much bang on 2mm on the E string it’s closer to 1.5 on the D, and I don’t think the string widths account for this. Same goes for your relief test; D string is showing a practically invisible gap compared to the E; which our together I’m guessing means that the neck is slightly out of true? A different set of strings has pretty much solved the D string issue; it still feels oddly muted when playing above the 10th fret and also as if the all strings are as bit “slappy” when strummed harder but I’m not sure if that’s because I’m used to paying with higher action and tension. I’m going to play it in a bit before trying to do anything I think.

I’m really grateful for this, it’s very helpful, thank you.

 

[kissing]

This is brilliant, thank you.
I don’t have a string action ruler but I do have a selection of gauged wire and sheet (jeweller), and while the gap is pretty much bang on 2mm on the E string it’s closer to 1.5 on the D, and I don’t think the string widths account for this. Same goes for your relief test; D string is showing a practically invisible gap compared to the E; which our together I’m guessing means that the neck is slightly out of true? A different set of strings has pretty much solved the D string issue; it still feels oddly muted when playing above the 10th fret and also as if the all strings are as bit “slappy” when strummed harder but I’m not sure if that’s because I’m used to paying with higher action and tension. I’m going to play it in a bit before trying to do anything I think.

I’m really grateful for this, it’s very helpful, thank you.

It's a bit hard to tell what the issues are without the instrument in front of me, but from what you described I suspect:

1. For some reason your action is significantly lower at the D string than the E string.
As the D string is the "bass" string, generally it should be a tad higher than the E string.
My general rule of thumb is for the D string to be 0.25mm higher than the E string (i.e. if the E string is 2.0mm, then D string should be 2.25mm).

This may explain why your D string feels weaker and slappier. The action is relatively lower.

Just as an FYI, since it's a Pono you probably also have a radiused fretboard (and a correspondingly radiused saddle).
This means that the saddle probably also has a rounded top to match the radius of the neck.
But for some reason the saddle is lower at the D string.

If it was my own instrument, I'd sand myself a new saddle from scratch that gives me the dimensions I prefer.

It's also possible that your saddle has been put in the wrong way end to end. Are you sure that the saddle has been put in correctly?
What if you rotated it 180 degrees end to end (so that the surface currently under the D string is under the E string).
Is the saddle compensated or consistent across?
For me, it would make more sense if the D string was 0.5mm higher than the E string, not the other way around.

2. If there is little to no gap between string and the 12th fret when you press down on the first & last frets, then your neck might not have enough relief, which is causing the slappy feeling. If you are feeling confident (and have studied enough guides online about truss rod adjustment), what you could do is insert the allen key into the slot in the sound hole and turn it counterclockwise a little bit (about a quarter turn) and see if it makes an improvement. There should be a noticeable difference in how the neck feels. You can incrementally turn either way until you reach your desired neck relief, but just remember to go easy with it (little at a time).

 

[Sophie C]

It's a bit hard to tell what the issues are without the instrument in front of me, but from what you described I suspect:

1. For some reason your action is significantly lower at the D string than the E string.
As the D string is the "bass" string, generally it should be a tad higher than the E string.
My general rule of thumb is for the D string to be 0.25mm higher than the E string (i.e. if the E string is 2.0mm, then D string should be 2.25mm).

This may explain why your D string feels weaker and slappier. The action is relatively lower.

Just as an FYI, since it's a Pono you probably also have a radiused fretboard (and a correspondingly radiused saddle).
This means that the saddle probably also has a rounded top to match the radius of the neck.
But for some reason the saddle is lower at the D string.

If it was my own instrument, I'd sand myself a new saddle from scratch that gives me the dimensions I prefer.

It's also possible that your saddle has been put in the wrong way end to end. Are you sure that the saddle has been put in correctly?
What if you rotated it 180 degrees end to end (so that the surface currently under the D string is under the E string).
Is the saddle compensated or consistent across?
For me, it would make more sense if the D string was 0.5mm higher than the E string, not the other way around.

2. If there is little to no gap between string and the 12th fret when you press down on the first & last frets, then your neck might not have enough relief, which is causing the slappy feeling. If you are feeling confident (and have studied enough guides online about truss rod adjustment), what you could do is insert the allen key into the slot in the sound hole and turn it counterclockwise a little bit (about a quarter turn) and see if it makes an improvement. There should be a noticeable difference in how the neck feels. You can incrementally turn either way until you reach your desired neck relief, but just remember to go easy with it (little at a time).

Thank you again - really appreciate the time you’ve put into this!

By radiused fretboard am I right in thinking you mean there is a slight arc in the same direction as the frets? I can’t see it (I think it would have to be more than slight for me to see it!) but I will take your word for it.

The saddle is slightly higher at the D than the E so I think it must be set up correctly; I’m up for a new and slightly exaggerated version at some point but my new strings have just settled so probably not this week… I will dig out my allen keys and see if a slight adjustment to the truss rod helps. It is starting to seem as if it is, actually, a combination of all the issues after all; but I quite like a learning curve so it’s all good.

Again, really grateful for your time, thank you.

 

[merlin666]

Lots of good advice from kissing. If this is a used uke then it is possible that someone has modified the saddle which is a common cause for issues. Remedy for that is getting a new saddle fit along with setup from skilled technician or luthier.

 

[Charles Guy]

Lots of good advice from kissing. If this is a used uke then it is possible that someone has modified the saddle which is a common cause for issues. Remedy for that is getting a new saddle fit along with setup from skilled technician or luthier.

Great point on used being possibly modified in the past. The MB I bought from Reverb seller had been setup exactly as they liked it by their luthier and I learned how to make a new saddle fairly quick due to a 1mm (or a bit more) slant from D to E. Now thinking I should replace the nut to raise the action at the first fret a bit as well.

 

[kissing]

Great point on used being possibly modified in the past. The MB I bought from Reverb seller had been setup exactly as they liked it by their luthier and I learned how to make a new saddle fairly quick due to a 1mm (or a bit more) slant from D to E. Now thinking I should replace the nut to raise the action at the first fret a bit as well.

I have had success raising the nut using this technique:

https://nashville.mi.edu/tech-tip-filling-and-recutting-the-nut-slot/

Might be easier than replacing the whole nut

 

[Charles Guy]

I have had success raising the nut using this technique:

https://nashville.mi.edu/tech-tip-filling-and-recutting-the-nut-slot/

Might be easier than replacing the whole nut

Thank you for the info, now I need to buy a set of nut files for my ever growing Ukulele accessory kit.

 

[casualmusic]

It’s come with worth brown strings on it which I haven’t used before, I have d’addario titanium on my other baritone and it also has slightly lower action than I’m used to.

My opinion is that soft tension fluorocarbon strings are too loose and wobble easily.


Worth browns are soft tension strings:
D: 0.0358 inch 0.91 mm
G: 0.0319 inch 0.81 mm
B: 0.0291 inch 0.74 mm
E: 0.0244 inch 0.62 mm

Worth Ukulele Strings Brown Fluoro-Carbon Baritone Uke 63 inch

Best service and prices on Worth Ukulele Brown Fluoro-Carbon Baritone Uke 63 inch, Full Set | Fast Shipping | Educated Staff | Huge Selection | Shop Now!

www.stringsbymail.com

Oasis are also soft tension:
D: 0.0358 inch 0.91 mm
G: 0.0319 inch 0.81 mm
B: 0.0291 inch 0.74 mm
E: 0.0244 inch 0.62 mm

Oasis Fluorocarbon Uke Baritone, Double Set

Strings By Mail Oasis Fluorocarbon Uke Baritone, Double Set - Oasis Fluorocarbon Uke Baritone, Double Set The UKE-8200 is an all clear fluorocarbon set measuring: E .0244” B .0291” G .0315” D .0358” Double Length, Cut into 2 sets!

www.stringsbymail.com

The D feels floppy, for want of a better word, it’s weirdly easy to slide right off the the neck when pushing it down and you can pretty much hear it slapping with anything played any distance from the nut (I have no appropriate vocab, I’m sorry; I mean when pressing down on the string).

My baritone all fluorocarbon choice is medium tension:
D: 0.0413 inch 1.05 mm
G: 0.0358 inch 0.91 mm
B: 0.0291 inch 0.74 mm
E: 0.0244 inch 0.62 mm

This means that the D and G strings are thicker and firmer, and won’t drift about as easily as low tension strings such as Worth browns.


These thicknesses are used by some baritone string makers such as Living Waters, Bytown Instruments, etc.


PHD uses a titch thinner (softer) D string:
D: 0.0390 inch 0.99 mm
G: 0.0358 inch 0.91 mm
B: 0.0291 inch 0.74 mm
E: 0.0244 inch 0.62 mm

PhD Baritone Low D Premium High Density Ukulele Strings

Strings By Mail PhD Baritone Low D Premium High Density Ukulele Strings - PhD Strings - Premium High Density Ukulele Strings Baritone Low D PVDF, a polymer of higher molecular weight and density than nylon strings, produces superior volume, sustain and play-ability. All unwound strings...

www.stringsbymail.com

Will this be solved with wound strings, which feel an awful lot tighter on my other uke than these do, or would the fact that they’re thicker make it worse;

There is a wide choice of baritone sets using thicker nylon + wound, and thinner fluorocarbon + wound. I’d start with locally available sets (looking forwards to easy re-supply) with the thickest strings (avoiding floppy strings). (Note that wound strings will sound duller sooner than unwound strings)

Try sets with wound strings without changing the baritone action.

Changing action may not be needed. Adjust action if needed after you find the set you like best.

BTW I like the sound and feel of wound strings, but found that my guitarist grip wrecked wound ukulele strings at the frets within an hour or two. Hard gauge wound nylon guitar strings are more robust and last longer.

would raising the saddle slightly be more useful or do I need to adjust the truss rod? (The neck to my astigmatic eyes looks straight, no bow.)

We amateurs find it easy to check string height at the 12th fret (string centre) and adjust the saddle by sanding its bottom as needed. Beware over sanding. The saddle can be shimmed higher using dense plastic cut from a credit card, or layers of shipping label stuck to the bottom of the saddle. Ukuleles are simple instruments with soft strings so no need for overkill.

A professional would start by adjusting nut slots if needed, adjusting curvature if needed using the truss rod, and finish by adjusting string height at the 12th fret.


Cheers.

 

[Kenn2018]

Hi, I am hoping someone can give me their best guess here. I’ve just bought a new-to-me pono mahogony baritone, which is a lovely thing. However there’s an issue that’s puzzling me as I’m not sure if it’s strings/truss rod/saddle (or, please no, all three) that’s the cause. It’s come with worth brown strings on it which I haven’t used before, I have d’addario titanium on my other baritone and it also has slightly lower action than I’m used to. The D feels floppy, for want of a better word, it’s weirdly easy to slide right off the the neck when pushing it down and you can pretty much hear it slapping with anything played any distance from the nut (I have no appropriate vocab, I’m sorry; I mean when pressing down on the string). Will this be solved with wound strings, which feel an awful lot tighter on my other uke than these do, or would the fact that they’re thicker make it worse; would raising the saddle slightly be more useful or do I need to adjust the truss rod? (The neck to my astigmatic eyes looks straight, no bow.)
Sorry if this is incoherent! Any help (including “just try new strings/adjusting the truss rod/raising the saddle (that last would be my last option) and see if it helps” would be very gratefully received. I’m going to get new strings asap as I’m not super keen on these.
Thank you so much.

Hi Sophie,

Generally, strings tend to push off the fretboard because the string sits too close to the edge of the board. Or the string is too slack or flexible. I had this problem with Freemont BlackLine strings on one of my tenors. It was too flexible and was easy to push it off the edge. The other problem may be with your fingering. You want your fingers to arc so that the tip of your fingers are coming down in a straight almost vertical line to push the string down close to the fret wire. If the finger tip is not vertical (or nearly vertical), you can very easily push the string off the edge.

Don't worry about all of the strings being floppy when your bari arrived, it is highly recommended that you loosen the strings for shipping so that they don't over-stress the neck and bridge from the temperature and humidity changes that often occur during transit. Expansion from heat & contraction from cold. It's also better to ship in a case to lessen shocks and insulate and slow the temperature changes.

 

[Sophie C]

My opinion is that soft tension fluorocarbon strings are too loose and wobble easily.


Worth browns are soft tension strings:
D: 0.0358 inch 0.91 mm
G: 0.0319 inch 0.81 mm
B: 0.0291 inch 0.74 mm
E: 0.0244 inch 0.62 mm

Worth Ukulele Strings Brown Fluoro-Carbon Baritone Uke 63 inch

Best service and prices on Worth Ukulele Brown Fluoro-Carbon Baritone Uke 63 inch, Full Set | Fast Shipping | Educated Staff | Huge Selection | Shop Now!

www.stringsbymail.com

Oasis are also soft tension:
D: 0.0358 inch 0.91 mm
G: 0.0319 inch 0.81 mm
B: 0.0291 inch 0.74 mm
E: 0.0244 inch 0.62 mm

Oasis Fluorocarbon Uke Baritone, Double Set

Strings By Mail Oasis Fluorocarbon Uke Baritone, Double Set - Oasis Fluorocarbon Uke Baritone, Double Set The UKE-8200 is an all clear fluorocarbon set measuring: E .0244” B .0291” G .0315” D .0358” Double Length, Cut into 2 sets!

www.stringsbymail.com

My baritone all fluorocarbon choice is medium tension:
D: 0.0413 inch 1.05 mm
G: 0.0358 inch 0.91 mm
B: 0.0291 inch 0.74 mm
E: 0.0244 inch 0.62 mm

This means that the D and G strings are thicker and firmer, and won’t drift about as easily as low tension strings such as Worth browns.


These thicknesses are used by some baritone string makers such as Living Waters, Bytown Instruments, etc.


PHD uses a titch thinner (softer) D string:
D: 0.0390 inch 0.99 mm
G: 0.0358 inch 0.91 mm
B: 0.0291 inch 0.74 mm
E: 0.0244 inch 0.62 mm

PhD Baritone Low D Premium High Density Ukulele Strings

Strings By Mail PhD Baritone Low D Premium High Density Ukulele Strings - PhD Strings - Premium High Density Ukulele Strings Baritone Low D PVDF, a polymer of higher molecular weight and density than nylon strings, produces superior volume, sustain and play-ability. All unwound strings...

www.stringsbymail.com

There is a wide choice of baritone sets using thicker nylon + wound, and thinner fluorocarbon + wound. I’d start with locally available sets (looking forwards to easy re-supply) with the thickest strings (avoiding floppy strings). (Note that wound strings will sound duller sooner than unwound strings)

Try sets with wound strings without changing the baritone action.

Changing action may not be needed. Adjust action if needed after you find the set you like best.

BTW I like the sound and feel of wound strings, but found that my guitarist grip wrecked wound ukulele strings at the frets within an hour or two. Hard gauge wound nylon guitar strings are more robust and last longer.




We amateurs find it easy to check string height at the 12th fret (string centre) and adjust the saddle by sanding its bottom as needed. Beware over sanding. The saddle can be shimmed higher using dense plastic cut from a credit card, or layers of shipping label stuck to the bottom of the saddle. Ukuleles are simple instruments with soft strings so no need for overkill.

A professional would start by adjusting nut slots if needed, adjusting curvature if needed using the truss rod, and finish by adjusting string height at the 12th fret.


Cheers.

Thank you, very much for this hugely useful and really in-depth reply which for some reason I’ve only just spotted, and I’m really sorry if I seemed rude!

I did end up adjusting the truss rod a bit; and that with the galli strings previously recommended mean it’s now an actual joy to play.