Myth, magic, truth...ukulele "opening up"

[Neil_O]

I'm pretty sure our ears change and our skills improve over the years.

I went used guitar shopping the other day, and in the time it took for me to take the guitar in my hands after the shop owner tuned it up and played a few Flamenco phrases, it had closed up again!

 

[Nickie]

Again, I've heard that some famous old Stradavarius violins stored in display cases are supposedly taken out and played on a regular schedule to maintain their high quality sound. If not played, they supposedly 'go to sleep", and won't sound as good until they have been played again,, when they wake up. So, I believe there is something to it, although I've not experienced it myself, to a noticeable degree.

This, I can believe. Fine instruments aren't meant to sit around unplayed.

 

[Nickie]

Yuck. Some of the comments to others are about as discounting and nasty as I have seen on this site. Sometimes, it is better to be nice than have to be right.

My motto is "Would I rather be right, or would I rather be happy?" Although I will have to add that I haven't read anything particularly nasty here.

 

[ampeep]

This subject is one where it's the objectivists vs. the subjectivists. Objectivists say there cannot be a difference unless it can be measured. Subjectivists say that there are differences that cannot be measured.

For instance mass market stereo equipment sounds different from high end stereo gear. A lot cannot be explained by measurements.

Others are dfferences in varietal wines, coffee, cigars or cheeses.

 

[John Colter]

My motto is "Would I rather be right, or would I rather be happy?" Although I will have to add that I haven't read anything particularly nasty here.

I am a lucky man...I am quite used to being both.

 

[70sSanO]

What I find most ironic about this thread are the pretty blurry, maybe non-existent, boundaries between breaking in, settling in, and opening up.

In some guitar forum discussions, the terms are used almost synonymously. And their are no defining the parameters of each.

The result is people talking past each other.

John

 

[don_b]

my uke has been open so long I don’t even remember what it sounds like closed

 

[surfink]

I think this topic is similar to the "Green Flash" phenomenon. I have seen the flash numerous times and some have no idea it exists. Growing up on the beach in SoCal where there is an ocean and visible horizon helps.
Building ukuleles since 2002, my ears tell me some instruments do change their sound.
David "Kawika" Hurd has compiled extensive research on many factors that contribute to the "science" of building stringed instruments.

 

[Ukecaster]

What I find most ironic about this thread are the pretty blurry, maybe non-existent, boundaries between breaking in, settling in, and opening up....

Yeah, blurred lines...someone should write a song about that

 

[Joyful Uke]

Yeah, blurred lines...someone should write a song about that

Only if they want to get sued....

 

[Graham Greenbag]

Yes, a nerve does seems to have been touched. Oh well, let’s hope that something good, like tolerance of alternative views, comes out of this. Aloha is a wonderful thing, we used to have it here and the world needs more of it (love, affection, peace, compassion and mercy).

Aloha - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ampeep]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion; in some cases there’s no way change someone else’s mindset. Just try to take it as an interesting discussion of different positions; it’s not worth getting riled up about it.

There were REALLY nasty, threatening personal attacks a few years ago on a Tesla forum - wasn’t worth going back.

 

[Mike $]

I suggest the ignore function, which I have now applied to you.

If that's not passive aggressive behavior, I don't know what is.

 

[ploverwing]

Wading in with my Mod Hat on.

Let's each take a deep breath, and revisit the original topic, which is a conversation about thoughts on an instrument opening up with time and playing. Please refrain from personal comments, whatever form that takes.

I think this topic (instruments opening up) is one of those where we "agree to disagree" in some circumstances, and we encompass a wide range of opinions and experiences about that.

As we all know, it is exceptionally difficult to gauge tone on the interwebs, and some are inclined to a more negative interpretation of tone than others, whether a negative voice is originally intended or not.

If we can't ramp back the negative (actual and/or perceived) back & forth, I will lock this thread.

 

[TimWilson]

I also am curious to hear which specific comments are the offending ones.

The list is long and not especially enlightening, in the sense that about a roughly equal number of reports were reporting one side or the other, or both, and another handful of reports were reporting people making reports. I don't mean to make light of it. On the contrary, I take it very seriously, and to honor the multiple sides, I've deleted a number of posts that weren't on the topic of whether or not instruments do...something or other or not....over time.

That is to say, once the topic of the thread has become the thread itself, rather than the topic that is its putative reason to exist, then it suggests some combination of the topic having run its course, or participants needing reminding that, yes, our discursive nature here is one of our best features, and while the point at which disagreement crosses into argument is fuzzy, it has definitely been crossed. So let's cross back, shall we? The topic here has something to do with ukuleles, and nothing to do with how we talk to each other about them.

I'm happy to speak with anyone about this offline. In addition to PMs, I'll take emails, timothywilson (no punctuation) at the one that starts with G. But I'd really rather not add a litany of the reported posts for us all to decide whether or not any offense should have been taken, or whether reports should have been made. That's not worth debating. Offense WAS taken, reports WERE made, so I intervened by request. @ploverwing responded first, but I'm the one who turned off posts. Please take up any issues with my actions with ME. Not here. Either in PMs or email.

But please, from here, let's talk about the topic and not about each other. We can perhaps start a thread about that in the Site Suggestions forum or someplace similar. Uke Talk is for uke talk.

Thanks always to the folks here who've been so committed to fostering the spirit of Aloha for years and years before I had any idea that such a thing even existed, much less as the core ethos of a community with 140,000 members. It's miraculous, and worth protecting and encouraging. Here's another of my efforts to do that.

Mahalo,
Tim
Mod

 

[Ottertail]

I think the debate is hot because people really have experienced the gamut of possibilities, and can only speak truthfully to their own experiences. People apply their own experiences to broad expectations. I’m not criticizing, this is step one of the scientific method. Observe, hypothesize, test.

I hypothesize the following:
Do instruments open up? Yes.
Do all instruments open up? No.
Do instruments that open up open to the same degree at the same rate? No.

I’m looking forward to testing, as I’m still shopping.

I can take a stab at logicing this out - instruments are individuals and their behavior is unique. Variation in wood properties between identically manufactured instruments creates unique voices, why should we not expect a unique process of change? Compound that by many different instruments, shapes, woods, glues, environmental factors, ear of the owner, and probably the biggest - length of ownership. If there’s one thing a newbie here can quickly observe, participants suffer the usual enthusiast acquisition disorder and exchange instruments frequently. So an instrument that may open slowly will not be observed to open at all if exchanged soon after purchase, or if exchanged several times during opening among owners.

Vintage Martins are often held up as superior in sound/tone, but we’ll never know how they sounded when factory fresh. Will a new C1K eventually sound like a 20s instrument? Aside from mahogany vs koa, we can’t know.

Will synthetic finishes and glues last as long as oil & nitro finishes and hide glues or whatever the famed Strativarii are finished and assembled with? I don’t know that either. If sound changes as finishes and glues cure should we not also expect sound to change as they degrade?

Well have a great Friday y’all! I may order a C1K this weekend, just trying to find one that doesn’t look like it was made from pallet slats.

 

[dancephoto]

Here is one possible way to think about this topic.

It is reasonable to assume that perishable materials (such as wood, various finishes, and hide glue) change (in the direction of perish) over time. Perishing may take a very long time.

Imagine an instrument that will not be played except for testing for sound once a year. Will it sound the same or different from year to year (or decade to decade)? Will any differences be perceptible to experienced players of the instrument? If noticeable, will the sound of the instrument at the various stages of perishing generally be considered by those same players to be "improved/preferred" in some way(s)?

Now imagine an instrument that is played regularly by an experience player who uses most or all of the instrument's capabilities? Taking into consideration all the vibrations, will it sound the same or different from year to year (or decade to decade)? Will any differences be perceptible to experienced players of the instrument? If noticeable, will the sound of the instrument at the various stages of perishing generally be considered by those same players to be improved/preferred" in some way(s)?

Now imagine an instrument that is played regularly by an experience player who uses most or all of the instrument's capabilities, but tuned to a higher or lower pitch than the previous example? Taking into consideration all the different vibrations/string tensions/etc., will it sound the same or different from year to year (or decade to decade)? Will any differences be perceptible to experienced players of the instrument? If noticeable, will the sound of the instrument at the various stages of perishing generally be considered by those same players to be improved/preferred" in some way(s)?

You can imagine other considerations, temperature, humidity, altitude, and so forth.

My personal view is that all instruments will change over time as they perish. I may or may not be able to perceive the changes. If I can perceive the changes, I may or may not prefer the changed sounds as they occur.

If I can perceive the changes that occur with my instrument—for whatever reasons—over time and I like them, I might say that my instrument is "opening up" or "improving." As it continues to change over time, and I continue to prefer the changes to the previous ways, I might say that it is continuing to "open up" or "getting better and better." But it would be more accurate for me to say that "I like or I prefer" the changes. That is because, while I might prefer the changes, someone else might not. They would not call the changes "improvements" or say the instrument was "opening up." They might say, "It's too bad your instrument changed. It used to sound better."

 

[merlin666]

Here is one possible way to think about this topic.

It is reasonable to assume that perishable materials (such as wood, various finishes, and hide glue) change (in the direction of perish) over time. Perishing may take a very long time.

Imagine an instrument that will not be played except for testing for sound once a year. Will it sound the same or different from year to year (or decade to decade)? Will any differences be perceptible to experienced players of the instrument? If noticeable, will the sound of the instrument at the various stages of perishing generally be considered by those same players to be "improved/preferred" in some way(s)?

Now imagine an instrument that is played regularly by an experience player who uses most or all of the instrument's capabilities? Taking into consideration all the vibrations, will it sound the same or different from year to year (or decade to decade)? Will any differences be perceptible to experienced players of the instrument? If noticeable, will the sound of the instrument at the various stages of perishing generally be considered by those same players to be improved/preferred" in some way(s)?

Now imagine an instrument that is played regularly by an experience player who uses most or all of the instrument's capabilities, but tuned to a higher or lower pitch than the previous example? Taking into consideration all the different vibrations/string tensions/etc., will it sound the same or different from year to year (or decade to decade)? Will any differences be perceptible to experienced players of the instrument? If noticeable, will the sound of the instrument at the various stages of perishing generally be considered by those same players to be improved/preferred" in some way(s)?

You can imagine other considerations, temperature, humidity, altitude, and so forth.

My personal view is that all instruments will change over time as they perish. I may or may not be able to perceive the changes. If I can perceive the changes, I may or may not prefer the changed sounds as they occur.

Opening up is not so much about change but all about improvement. The hypothesis is that the instrument is getting better and better with age, and not deteriorating like all other material and live things.

 

[dancephoto]

Opening up is not so much about change but all about improvement. The hypothesis is that the instrument is getting better and better with age, and not deteriorating like all other material and live things.

Thank you. I have added a paragraph to my post for clarification.

 

[TimWilson]

I may order a C1K this weekend, just trying to find one that doesn’t look like it was made from pallet slats.