I noticed on Mim's site she's no longer handling baritones due to intonation issues that were either unfixable or not worth the time and effort. I have an Ohana BK-14 that's less than stellar in that department, and I was wondering why with the longest scale length in the ukulele family, I would've thought they'd have the least problems, since I was under the impression that the shorter fret scale lengths of ukes was what made it tough to get the intonation right. Any thoughts? I was going to write to Mim but I know she works long hours, and I'm not even a customer......yet.
Baritones and intonation
- Thread starter tonyg
- Start date
BuzzBD
Well-known member
Intonation is not rocket science. Measure the distance from the front edge of the nut to the center of the twelfth fret. The actual scale length is twice that, plus approximately 1.5 to 3.0 mm for compensation. If you enter the scale length into the Stew-Mac fret calculator it will give you the correct distances for the individual frets. Compare these to the actual dimensions on your baritone to discover any discrepancies. If the fret slots were cut wrong or the bridge glued in the wrong place, you have a significant problem.
It depends on the string density and thickness too. On guitars, 20" scale (like Rickenbacker 325s) are tough to intonate, end up having to use thicker strings to get any stability. You're right though, the longer the scale length, the easier/better it is to intonate. I would guess that even if the uke has the frets and bridge in the right place, it's possible the string manufacturers don't make very good string sets for baritones. The saddles are standard maybe 3mm thick, and if the string intonation requires more adjustment than that (sharp or flat) between the 4 strings, it would be take too much time to fiddle with.
about2
Well-known member
You are correct, mim no longer sells baritones. And one of the reasons she gave was they took often more work to set up correctly. Mim is a quality dealer. I’ve purchased several from her and love her work. I respect her decision to offer the ukes she wants to work with and the companies she wants to represent. It might be interesting to see if other set up folks she her experience.
I can only say I am a big fan of the baritone uke. I have owned many. None of them have suffered from an intonation problem. I hope your experience with your bari doesn’t turn you off from exploring its unique place.
I can only say I am a big fan of the baritone uke. I have owned many. None of them have suffered from an intonation problem. I hope your experience with your bari doesn’t turn you off from exploring its unique place.
Thanks for your somewhat condescending answer. Coming from a builder of higher end ukuleles, I imagine it's NOT rocket science, but I'm just an average uke player wondering what the connection is between shorter fret scales and intonation. But thanks anyway.
Bill Sheehan
Well-known member
Honestly, Tony, I don't think Buzz intended any condescension, as that would be out of character for him in my experience.
But I do have a quick question, Tony-- does your baritone feature an adjustable truss rod? My understanding of the finer principles of these things is limited, but I suppose a neck in need of a truss-rod-tweak might have an impact on the intonation. And of course there's the usual "bridge height" and "nut height" factors too. And those latter two factors could be present on a uke of any size, so maybe no one size is by nature more prone to intonation problems than other sizes. It is interesting, however, that Mim ran into intonation issues with baritones.
I think the issue with your uke can be from any factor and not directly tied to the fact it is baritone. Most factory lines use computer guided placement for bridges and frets so it is unlikely the position would be significantly incorrect. With the proper fresh strings, and a set up to fix badly crowned frets, truss rod or compensated saddle issues, intonation almost anything can be fixed. Same for any size uke. If a string change doesn't fix your problem, then get a professional set up or learn to diy. It could very well be old crusty wound strings causing the issue.
My baritone uke (Ohana BK-14) doesn't have a truss rod and the Worth Browns are only a couple months old. The intonation isn't all that bad but it seems to sound better if I tune it to the third fret. Not perfect, but then again, having switched from playing a Martin guitar for many years (due to thumb arthritis), I was kinda used to perfect intonation. What prompted my original post was seeing that Mim no longer stocks baritones due to frequent intonation issues. I'm probably better off writing to her and asking her why this might be. Thanks for your input.
Does intonation go sharp, or flat?
This only addresses sharp.
1. Measure string clearance at the 12th fret.
2.5 - 3mm is what I would expect as normal.
2. Check intonation (by tuner or ear) at the 12th fret.
If correct, the nut to 12th and 12th to saddle are spaced correctly.
3. If intonation goes sharp at the 1st fret and above, that may indicate clearance at the 1st fret is too high.
Hold each string at the 2nd fret while measuring the clearance between each string and the 1st fret. I do this visually.
To measure (while holding at the 2nd) press each string directly over the 1st fret. There needs to be at least "some" discernable* clearance. Otherwise, you will have fret buzz.
(*This minimum is in the range of .003-.005" (thousandths) of an inch - the thickness of common printed paper.
If the gap for each string is obviously higher, fretting (especially when pressing hard) will cause it to go sharp.
If too high, the nut slot for each string will need to be adjusted lower as necessary.
(Disclaimer: This was learned from trial and error and a video by Baz, and is true for all ukulele scale lengths. If anyone notices an error, please chime in.)
This only addresses sharp.
1. Measure string clearance at the 12th fret.
2.5 - 3mm is what I would expect as normal.
2. Check intonation (by tuner or ear) at the 12th fret.
If correct, the nut to 12th and 12th to saddle are spaced correctly.
3. If intonation goes sharp at the 1st fret and above, that may indicate clearance at the 1st fret is too high.
Hold each string at the 2nd fret while measuring the clearance between each string and the 1st fret. I do this visually.
To measure (while holding at the 2nd) press each string directly over the 1st fret. There needs to be at least "some" discernable* clearance. Otherwise, you will have fret buzz.
(*This minimum is in the range of .003-.005" (thousandths) of an inch - the thickness of common printed paper.
If the gap for each string is obviously higher, fretting (especially when pressing hard) will cause it to go sharp.
If too high, the nut slot for each string will need to be adjusted lower as necessary.
(Disclaimer: This was learned from trial and error and a video by Baz, and is true for all ukulele scale lengths. If anyone notices an error, please chime in.)
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I know that Hawaii Music Supply podcast posted about this in one of their podcasts a while ago. I remember them mentioning the importance of the truss rod in baritones due to the higher tension, increased scale length, and higher action needed in a baritone for a good setup. I'm paraphrasing, but they also how into how not all truss rods are made equally, with some brands having truss rods being little more than decorative features given how ineffective they were. I don't know which episodes, but it one of the ones before they started using timestamps.
Both TUS and Mim simply don't carry some brands due to some QC or build issues and have publicly shared as much as times, and I'm not surprised she has written off baritones as a whole (editted for clarity) given the extra effort involved and room for build errors. I think it's worth considering the advice of individuals who do this all day as their livelihood and who have handled so many instruments.
Both TUS and Mim simply don't carry some brands due to some QC or build issues and have publicly shared as much as times, and I'm not surprised she has written off baritones as a whole (editted for clarity) given the extra effort involved and room for build errors. I think it's worth considering the advice of individuals who do this all day as their livelihood and who have handled so many instruments.
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don't think I'd put all baritone's in the same basket. In my experience, for every low end baritone model that has good intonation, there's an exact same model from the same production run that doesn't. Consistency can be lacking.
BuzzBD
Well-known member
I am sorry that my reply caused some ill feelings, that was not my intent. I simply wanted to point out that it is relatively easy to identify whether there are any serious construction issues with fretboard and/or bridge placement. These things do occur, and should be the first things to be addressed with any intonation problems. You are correct in your assessment that the shorter the scale length, the greater the effect on any errors will be. A 1 mm error on the first fret slot on a baritone scale will result in about 3 cents difference in intonation. In a soprano, the same error will result in a 5 cent difference.
Brad
Charles Guy
Well-known member
Thank you all for another informative and instructional thread. Sent me off to check string frequencies open vs. 12th fret and thankfully virtually spot on for all four strings. Which is amazing after all of my string changes and the saddle change. Sadly now I have to admit that the occasional (frequent) odd/off sound is the result of this player and not the ukulele itself. Sigh.
Neil_O
Well-known member
Your Martin did not have perfect intonation. How do I know? Because it is not possible unless you had special frets installed. And even then...it will only be close. Did your frets look like this:
Naah, sorta kinda right there
...
Neil_O
Well-known member
Maybe because Baritone is a dark horse of an instrument, some say it's not even a ukulele! While I wouldn't go that far (aloud), it is not as popular an instrument as a Tenor or Sop uke, so I reckon less good ones are out there in the wild. I'd be curious what Mim says if you get her ear.
Perfect compared to some of the cheap guitars I owns in the 60's!
Mim wrote me back........quality control issues rather than intonation issues. Too time consuming to do a good setup. Not sure why baritones.....maybe what you said.
