New Pono Nui Big Baritone low GCEA tuning issues

[mindfly]

I broke 2 G, 2 A, and 1 E string trying to tune my new Pono Nui to low GCEA. Eventually, I had a luthier look at it and here's what I learned..

1. Problem #1: The nut notches were not shaped correctly. The back half of the notches, nearest the tuning pegs, wasn't even touching the string, which caused the strings to break at the front of the notch.
2. Problem #2: The 23" fretboard length greatly increases the tension required to tune these Nui's to GCEA. I had to increase the strings' diameters to keep them from breaking. However, the higher tension also pulls up the faceboard and reduces the sound projection and sustain a bit.

In the end, I am probably going to re-string it back to the conventional DGBE baritone tuning and learn how to play that tuning. However, I'm not looking forward to re-learning how to play a different tuning and/or convert from GCEA tab to DGBE

I would love to hear any suggestions and/or thoughts anyone may have regarding the low GCEA tuning on the Nui.

 

[Wiggy]

Prob #2 Have you tried high G, as in gCEA? The low C (C3 aka: piano low C) should be able to ring out well.

This is nylon-stringed, right? Not steel strings?

I don't have a nylon instrument in the 23" scale to test, but on 23" nylon I'd estimate somewhere around .040" wound for C3.

 

[merlin666]

Prob #2

Did you try to get up to a soprano tuning, or one octave lower? For baritone scale, tuning lower would be the appropriate way to go.

 

[mindfly]

Prob #2 Have you tried high G, as in gCEA? The low C (C3 aka: piano low C) should be able to ring out well.

This is nylon-stringed, right? Not steel strings?

I don't have a nylon instrument in the 23" scale to test, but on 23" nylon I'd estimate somewhere around .040" wound for C3.

The high GCEA turning would have the same problem since only the G string would be different, right?
Yep, nylon string, NOT steel.
After installing a 28p nylon string (standard is 20p) as the A string, it still broke when I tuned it up to G on the way to A.

 

[mindfly]

Did you try to get up to a soprano tuning, or one octave lower? For baritone scale, tuning lower would be the appropriate way to go.

Soprano, concert, and tenor all use the same octave GCEA tuning. I haven't read any positive reviews about dropping an octave. All of them indicated it didn't sound good tuning it that low. Hmmm... maybe I'll try that and see for myself.

Note that my standard baritone, a Pono ABD-SP, works fine with low|high GCEA tuning - the string tension feels good and it sounds great.

 

[Wiggy]

The high GCEA turning would have the same problem since only the G string would be different, right?
....
After installing a 28p nylon string (standard is 20p) as the A string, it still broke when I tuned it up to G on the way to A.

Yes, the 'g' would be an octave higher (G3)- it is the same as a soprano low G, and is the G above C3.

*** (You can google all these notes and hear them. Example: Google "piano C3") ***

A-string: Maintaining the same pitch on a longer scale would require a thinner string.
(The thinnest "practical" string is about .016" in diameter.)

 

[ripock]

When you return to Chicago-tuning, you don't have to learn a new system. All you need to do is know your circle and fifths. For example if you want to play in C, look at the circle of 5ths and move one note clockwise which is G. Play the song with the chords you know from your soprano in the key of G. Although you think you're playing in G, you're playing in C. No new chords to learn.

 

[casualmusic]

Hi Mindfly

Welcome to the forum.

I had a Pono Nui. Liked it a lot. It didn’t suit my needs so went back after a week.

Over the last three years I’ve been re-stringing a bunch of instruments to irregular tunings.

Yes you can achieve GCEA tuning on a 23” scale Nui.

Problem #1: The nut notches were not shaped correctly. The back half of the notches, nearest the tuning pegs, wasn't even touching the string, which caused the strings to break at the front of the notch.

This isn’t a primary reason for broken strings. Pono is actually correct in having the string contact the fret side edge of the nut to ensure accurate string length to each fret.

Problem #2: The 23" fretboard length greatly increases the tension required to tune these Nui's to GCEA. I had to increase the strings' diameters to keep them from breaking. However, the higher tension also pulls up the faceboard and reduces the sound projection and sustain a bit.

Yes, trying to tune the D3 G3 B4 E4 strings up to G3 C4 E4 A5 will over stretch them to the breakage point.

Using strings that are too thick will stress the soundboard before the strings can get up to tune. Please loosen them before be they cause damage.

In the end, I am probably going to re-string it back to the conventional DGBE baritone tuning and learn how to play that tuning. However, I'm not looking forward to re-learning how to play a different tuning and/or convert from GCEA tab to DGBE

I would love to hear any suggestions and/or thoughts anyone may have regarding the low GCEA tuning on the Nui.

Solutions:

A. Contact these folks by email or phone asking about custom 23” scale GCEA sets. Be sure to mention 23” scale.

STORE | Living Water Strings | Ken Middleton's Site

The place to select and buy Living Water Strings. You can select from my 8 regular sets as well as the the most popular custom sets. Made in Heaven, by angels.

www.kenmiddleton.co.uk

Ukulele Strings | Tenor, Baritone & Soprano Uke Strings | Strings By Mail

www.stringsbymail.com

Bytown Instruments

Bytown Instruments is a Canadian distributor for Mainland Ukes and Romero Creations ukuleles. I also manufacture the Novice 26 harp and have the rights ...

www.bytowninstruments.com

B. Meanwhile, here is my home brew approach:
- Notice that the G3, C4/B4, E4 strings (mentioned above) are the same for DGBE and GCEA
- This means you can start with a DGBE set from your local music store (see notes below)
- Remove the D string from slot 4; it won’t be used.
- Move the G string from slot 3 to slot 4, move the B string to slot 3 and tune it to C, move the E to slot 2.
- Buy a string for the A in slot 1. To complete a fluorocarbon string set a good gauge would be approx 0.50mm or 0.020” more or less as available. This is about the same as the skinny string for soprano or concert. My understanding is that 0.52mm, 0.47mm, 0.023”, 0.021” are typically sizes offered by string set companies for ukuleles and classical guitars. Perhaps start on the thinner side if availabile, switch to thicker if more tension is needed.
- Later if you decide to continue with partial DGBE sets look into getting a $15 25yard spool of approx 0.50mm fluorocarbon fishing leader line at the fishing tackle store to make A strings. Depending on specs it will be strength rated 25lb or 30lb - the important thing is the gauge not the strength. (I have no experience with nylon/Nylgut gauges or feasibility but follow the same principles).
- Note1: For DGBE sets I’d begin with sets using thinner gauges. Companies use approx the same specs 1.05mm, 0.91mm, 0.74mm, 0.62mm.
- Note2: My NUI came with a DGBE Nylgut set with two wound strings that felt good at 23”. I have no suggestions about Nylgut or nylon because all my playing has been fluorocarbon.
- Note3: A set of DGBE Living Waters all fluorocarbon played well. Felt a stiff at first but okay after a few minutes.
- Note4: I’d absolutely disregard any advise about using the four skinny strings from a classical guitar set for 23” GCEA. It may be workable for a 20” scale baritone ukulele but will be too tight for a 23” NUI.


Best regards.

 

[cdkrugjr]

Remember that for G tuning Pono just gives you plain old Baritone strings, so for C tuning you just need a “Low G Baritone” set should work.

Living Water, and PhD should both be able to accommodate you

 

[mindfly]

Hi Mindfly

Welcome to the forum.

I had a Pono Nui. Liked it a lot. It didn’t suit my needs so went back after a week.

Over the last three years I’ve been re-stringing a bunch of instruments to irregular tunings.

Yes you can achieve GCEA tuning on a 23” scale Nui.



This isn’t a primary reason for broken strings. Pono is actually correct in having the string contact the fret side edge of the nut to ensure accurate string length to each fret.




Yes, trying to tune the D3 G3 B4 E4 strings up to G3 C4 E4 A5 will over stretch them to the breakage point.

Using strings that are too thick will stress the soundboard before the strings can get up to tune. Please loosen them before be they cause damage.



Solutions:

A. Contact these folks by email or phone asking about custom 23” scale GCEA sets. Be sure to mention 23” scale.

STORE | Living Water Strings | Ken Middleton's Site

The place to select and buy Living Water Strings. You can select from my 8 regular sets as well as the the most popular custom sets. Made in Heaven, by angels.

www.kenmiddleton.co.uk

Ukulele Strings | Tenor, Baritone & Soprano Uke Strings | Strings By Mail

www.stringsbymail.com

Bytown Instruments

Bytown Instruments is a Canadian distributor for Mainland Ukes and Romero Creations ukuleles. I also manufacture the Novice 26 harp and have the rights ...

www.bytowninstruments.com

B. Meanwhile, here is my home brew approach:
- Notice that the G3, C4/B4, E4 strings (mentioned above) are the same for DGBE and GCEA
- This means you can start with a DGBE set from your local music store (see notes below)
- Remove the D string from slot 4; it won’t be used.
- Move the G string from slot 3 to slot 4, move the B string to slot 3 and tune it to C, move the E to slot 2.
- Buy a string for the A in slot 1. To complete a fluorocarbon string set a good gauge would be approx 0.50mm or 0.020” more or less as available. This is about the same as the skinny string for soprano or concert. My understanding is that 0.52mm, 0.47mm, 0.023”, 0.021” are typically sizes offered by string set companies for ukuleles and classical guitars. Perhaps start on the thinner side if availabile, switch to thicker if more tension is needed.
- Later if you decide to continue with partial DGBE sets look into getting a $15 25yard spool of approx 0.50mm fluorocarbon fishing leader line at the fishing tackle store to make A strings. Depending on specs it will be strength rated 25lb or 30lb - the important thing is the gauge not the strength. (I have no experience with nylon/Nylgut gauges or feasibility but follow the same principles).
- Note1: For DGBE sets I’d begin with sets using thinner gauges. Companies use approx the same specs 1.05mm, 0.91mm, 0.74mm, 0.62mm.
- Note2: My NUI came with a DGBE Nylgut set with two wound strings that felt good at 23”. I have no suggestions about Nylgut or nylon because all my playing has been fluorocarbon.
- Note3: A set of DGBE Living Waters all fluorocarbon played well. Felt a stiff at first but okay after a few minutes.
- Note4: I’d absolutely disregard any advise about using the four skinny strings from a classical guitar set for 23” GCEA. It may be workable for a 20” scale baritone ukulele but will be too tight for a 23” NUI.


Best regards.

Thank you so much for all of the detail. One clarification: I was not using the DGBE strings to tune to gCEA. I was using baritone gCEA strings. After going through 3 sets of gCEA strings and breaking one or more them in each set, I went to an experienced luthier for help. The luthier also could not tune it to gCEA using a set of Oasis Bright gCEA strings without breaking them. Plus, I didn't like the idea of all of that tension on my brand new Pono Nui or how that tension slightly, but noticeably, degraded the quality of the tone it produced.

I decided to succumb to the inevitably easier solution of going back to the standard baritone DGBE and putting a capo on the 5th fret whenever I want to play gCEA tuning.

That just seems to be the most frictionless way to deal with it. Fortunately, I used to play guitar so the transition won't be too bad. I was already at that point where I had realized I needed to learn circle of fifths, chord orbits, and scales to progress. I figure this was the Guitar God's way of telling me to "git own wid dit".

I have it rigged with D'Addario Baritone Clear Nylon with several standard baritone (Oasis, Worth, Koolau Aho) fluorocarbon string sets on the way for experimentation.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to answer my questions - much obliged.

Shout out to The Ukulele Site for being so very warm, supportive, and willing to make me happy with my purchase. They are definitely going to be the first place I hit when I buy ukulele stuff.

 

[Jim Hanks]

If you want G2 C3 E3 A3 on 23" scale, i would think you'd want the bottom 4 strings from a classical guitar set. You might need to go with a low tension set. I have a 19" scale guilele in G2 C3 F3 Bb3 D4 G4 with a normal tension set and I'd call it low-to-medium tension overall.

 

[mindfly]

If you want G2 C3 E3 A3 on 23" scale, i would think you'd want the bottom 4 strings from a classical guitar set. You might need to go with a low tension set. I have a 19" scale guilele in G2 C3 F3 Bb3 D4 G4 with a normal tension set and I'd call it low-to-medium tension overall.

I just broke another string, the "D" string, using a standard set of DGBE Baritone. I was very careful to tension all of them up over 3 days. The 4th day I played it for about 10m, put it away in its case, opened it an hour later, and... broken string.

That makes 7 strings I have broken so far trying to get this new Nui playable.

It's gotta be the nut. The luthier told me the notch channels were shaped so that the string wasn't touching the peg-side of the channel for about 2/3rd of the nut channel.

I'm going to have to either rig it like you suggested, have the luthier shim and re-shape the notch channel of the nut, or send it back. Ugh!

 

[Neil_O]

I just broke another string, the "D" string, using a standard set of DGBE Baritone. I was very careful to tension all of them up over 3 days. The 4th day I played it for about 10m, put it away in its case, opened it an hour later, and... broken string.

That makes 7 strings I have broken so far trying to get this new Nui playable.

It's gotta be the nut. The luthier told me the notch channels were shaped so that the string wasn't touching the peg-side of the channel for about 2/3rd of the nut channel.

I'm going to have to either rig it like you suggested, have the luthier shim and re-shape the notch channel of the nut, or send it back. Ugh!

This seems weird to me: the length of contact with the nut should not cause breakage. I could see if the nut was sharp it might dig into the string, so maybe I don't understand the scenario. If you rub some cotton twine or thread back and forth in that nut slot, does it start to fray right away?

 

[Wiggy]

... re-shape the notch channel of the nut...

If a string seriously binds in the nut slot, it may break.

When you turn any tuner, does its string slide easily (you can see it happening) back and forth through the nut slot? If it doesn't slide, the nut slot is not wide* enough.

(*Do not confuse this with deep enough - big difference. (Too deep {in general} = ruined nut.)

Are you certain that you are tuning to the correct octave? (See my reply, #6)

 

[mindfly]

If a string seriously binds in the nut slot, it may break.

When you turn any tuner, does its string slide easily (you can see it happening) back and forth through the nut slot? If it doesn't slide, the nut slot is not wide* enough.

(*Do not confuse this with deep enough - big difference. (Too deep {in general} = ruined nut.)

Are you certain that you are tuning to the correct octave? (See my reply, #6)

I have been pretty careful to check my tuning against a reference note played specifically because the tuner only registers the note, not the octave. In none of these cases of the string breaking was I in the wrong octave.

The luthier told me the string was not touching the peg-side 2/3 of the notch. The less area the string touches the higher the force on the string. If the string is only touching, as in this case, 1/3 of notch, the force is 3 times higher than it would be if it was touching across the whole notch.

Unfortunately, I can't get a replacement so I'm going to have to have them shim the nut so they can fix the notch shape.

 

[mindfly]

This seems weird to me: the length of contact with the nut should not cause breakage. I could see if the nut was sharp it might dig into the string, so maybe I don't understand the scenario. If you rub some cotton twine or thread back and forth in that nut slot, does it start to fray right away?

Bending a string over a knife is going to break it much more easily than a spoon because the force is concentrated over a much smaller area. The luthier tested the notches and everything was good except for the amount of contact.

 

[Futurethink]

Bending a string over a knife is going to break it much more easily than a spoon because the force is concentrated over a much smaller area. The luthier tested the notches and everything was good except for the amount of contact.

I assume that this is how your luthier explained it to you, but I don’t believe him. Bridges are often “compensated” to correct intonation issues and this creates the “knife edge” you’re being cautioned against.

When I tune my strings the string often catches at the nut. Several options exist for dealing with the problem. I usually lift the string out of the notch and replace it in the notch several times as I tighten the string. This prevents having all of the tightening occur between the peg and the nut.

Other recommendations include using a pencil to add some lubricating graphite within the notches on the nut, or, as has been suggested here, using a tiny file to slightly widen the notch. Previous threads about similar string snapping frustrations recommended a careful examination of the peg to verify that no sharp edges exist on the hole in the peg.

 

[ploverwing]

This has been suggested I'll just add my vote in favour: I recently purchased LaBella Requinto strings for my Requinto guitar (just over 22" scale length) tuned A-A rather than E-E, I would think that would work for your Baritone to tune GCEA? But... it sounds like you might have other things going on there. Just thought I'd add my $0.02 of very noob input

 

[mindfly]

I assume that this is how your luthier explained it to you, but I don’t believe him. Bridges are often “compensated” to correct intonation issues and this creates the “knife edge” you’re being cautioned against.

When I tune my strings the string often catches at the nut. Several options exist for dealing with the problem. I usually lift the string out of the notch and replace it in the notch several times as I tighten the string. This prevents having all of the tightening occur between the peg and the nut.

Other recommendations include using a pencil to add some lubricating graphite within the notches on the nut, or, as has been suggested here, using a tiny file to slightly widen the notch. Previous threads about similar string snapping frustrations recommended a careful examination of the peg to verify that no sharp edges exist on the hole in the peg.

That’s interesting. You mentioned “bridge” for correcting intonation issues but did you mean “nut”? so is the nut for correcting intonation issues, distributing stress to make the bend to the peg, or both?

 

[mindfly]

This has been suggested I'll just add my vote in favour: I recently purchased LaBella Requinto strings for my Requinto guitar (just over 22" scale length) tuned A-A rather than E-E, I would think that would work for your Baritone to tune GCEA? But... it sounds like you might have other things going on there. Just thought I'd add my $0.02 of very noob input

The Lucier tried stringing it with normal baritone strings and tuning an octave lower but the tension was too tight at the right octave and way too loose at the lower octave.